Jennifer Ma, chief strategy officer of the CTF Education Group, is our guest on Straight Talk this week.

Jennifer has provided us with the latest numbers and statistics on Hong Kong students going for overseas education in recent years, and why we are seeing some of the changes right now. She says parents are now getting their children prepared even earlier for overseas education, and that universities worldwide are also making changes in terms of their offerings.

Check out the full transcript of TVB’s Straight Talk host Dr Eugene Chan’s interview with Jennifer Ma:

Chan: Good evening! I'm Eugene Chan and welcome to Straight Talk. Our guest this evening is Jennifer Ma, the chief strategy officer of CTF Education Group, based in Hong Kong. Herself a first-class honours graduate from Oxford University, she worked in the investment banking industry at Merrill Lynch and Goldman Sachs before deciding to pursue her passion in education. Jennifer is also involved in organizations that recruit and fund scholars from Hong Kong and the Chinese mainland to further their studies in the UK, and also leads a team of expert counsellors to guide students in applying to top UK boarding schools and universities. With her extensive experience and visionary approach, Jennifer is uniquely positioned to shed light on why so many Hong Kong students continue to choose to study abroad. Welcome, Jennifer!

Ma: Thank you, Eugene, for having me!

Chan: You know, over the last two weeks on Straight Talk, we have talked about whether the local Hong Kong education system can produce top talent. So, tonight will be a very good episode to compare with the topic on overseas education which you have been working on for so many years. Maybe we can start with some statistics. Actually, how many of our students go overseas to study and sort of which countries are most popular and why?

Ma: Well, the latest statistics that came out in about May, said Hong Kong Six Form graduates, we're looking at 25 percent going abroad to study which despite it being a drop from the past that is still kind of a high figure. Historically, the UK has always been a popular destination. The US, Canada, Australia to follow. But over the past few years, we have seen an increase of interests going into China as well with around 4,000 students a year applying to China universities.

Chan: Jennifer, when you're saying that 25 percent, actually it's quite a high number. If we include those actually who may leave earlier, into even primary school or even early secondary school, how many percent do you think, of our students actually start going abroad to study?

Ma: We're probably looking at a third, 33 percent to 35 percent at least.

Chan: So, has the landscape of overseas education changed much over the last few years?

Ma: Well, actually, the global education landscape has changed quite dramatically over the past five to seven years, I would say, partially induced by COVID, legitimizing the whole online education space, and also with the advent of artificial intelligence, parents and students are now really reconsidering what is the quality education definition and which jurisdiction gives them the best opportunities. And often times when we're talking about university, it's not just about education, it's really about beyond education, the career paths in different parts of the world.

Chan: Right. So, the latest trend that I would say for studying overseas is people still going but they look at things (from) a different angle.

Ma: Over the past five to six years to be honest, we have seen more students opting to stay put in Hong Kong for tertiary education advancement.

Chan: … despite the 1/3 of the people you just mentioned.

Ma: Yes, yes. For various reasons. Some feel that they would like more affiliation to China, understand the China system. So, for example, studying law in Hong Kong there are a lot of electives that are very practical and relevant to the Chinese legal system. So, they feel that going to a Hong Kong university, they have an early start to understanding the real-world relevance. And also Hong Kong universities have become much more innovative in what they offer. But despite that, we still see a very strong trend of students going abroad especially at the younger age.

Chan: Right, you know, we often talk about in Straight Talk that five out of eight universities are actually in the top 100. Is that helping the attraction for Hong Kong students to stay in Hong Kong?

Ma: Definitely and also Hong Kong universities have become so innovative over the past 10 years in their offering. So, if you look at a lot of the degrees, they have a lot of electives for choice, many of them are very practical in delivery. And also a lot of them have intercalated years where students actually do gain international exposure whilst staying in Hong Kong, and of course, students feel that the pedagogical delivery has also increased in standards. A lot of the subjects offer tutorials, small classroom, discussion-based teaching. So, I think all of that has increased the popularity of Hong Kong universities.

Chan: Right. When you talk about different courses, people often think about where you should go. Are there any countries that are more popular for specific courses? Well, it used to be like a computer, you must go to ... IT, you must go to the US.

Ma: Yes, I think in the past, there had been a stereotypical perception towards the UK being more academically-focused, more famous for professional subjects like medicine and law. And that's still true, because the UK still has the biggest and most established healthcare system, public health healthcare system, whereas the US is more entrepreneurial, more science-focused. But things have really changed. So, over the past few years, we have seen a convergence of the UK philosophy and the US philosophy which are the key two philosophies of global education. The UK's subject choice has doubled …

Chan: Really?

Ma: … over the past five years. From 30,000 to now 50,000 subject choices.

Chan: Choices? Wow.

Ma: Yes. And, of course that includes a whole new set of subjects like AI data, science, etc. But also, one subject has been split into many degrees. So, for example, in our generation, we go for pure economics or pure engineering and LSE only offered pure economics and Imperial only offered pure engineering. But now you cannot do engineering at Imperial, but you can do 10 different types of engineering. So, mechanical, civil, design engineering, and you have to pick when you're applying to a university. The requirement of students' maturity, of choosing, even a subset of a subject is much higher now. And they really want to see the students passionate about that particular discipline. So, that's the UK. One big trend is further kind of specialization of professional subjects. But another trend in the UK is interdisciplinary subjects, which is becoming more like the US system of a liberal arts system. In the UK, there's a lot of combinations now. That actually crosses arts and sciences. And so, flipside on the US in the past, they always advocate for liberal arts, and they really look at leadership, entrepreneurial spirit, even when you apply to university right? But now there's definitely much more focus on students' subject orientation. So, they will actually ask you, if you were to come to this university, what subject, what discipline you may want to pursue, you can still change, but at least give them an indication.

Chan: Right, Jennifer with all these, I mean there is such a wide range of choices available, would it be one of the main reasons or what I would say the factor of motivation of Hong Kong students going abroad to study? I mean, I used to think maybe they want to be exposed to different cultures or they think they have better career prospects. What do you think will be the major sort of motivation factors for students who still go abroad, it's quite a high number.

Ma: The traditional reasons like independence, cultural exposure, still stand, academically I think Hong Kong students are very, very competitive. They do not need to go abroad to get that academic enhancement. But I think it is the general education philosophy and mindset that you will get from going abroad. UK, US or any kind of overseas universities really focus, really want to appreciate and acknowledge students' passion, so your genuine passion for the subject or your genuine passion for community engagement. So, I think that's quite refreshing and quite inspiring for students. Secondly, I think Hong Kong is, in many ways, limited by space. So, even in a school in Hong Kong, you would not have a lot of space for sports, for example, or a whole independent building just focused on performing arts. But you can go abroad and just the facilities can really complement the pedagogical offerings.

Chan:  Alright, I see. I think after all, at the end of the day, the parents will have a very decisive factor in determining whether a child would go overseas to study. Do you think nowadays, how do parents influence the actual decision for the kids to go, and what are their key concerns and priorities? I'm sure the viewers are going to ask: should I be sending my kids? So, what should they be considering the most? What do you think?

Ma: Very interesting question. We have seen such a big shift over the past 15 years. At the beginning of our consulting journey, most of the decisions I will say are very highly influenced by parents, but over the past few years, I think even parents themselves have changed. So, they, especially those who are involved in the workforce, understand that, you know, studying a particular subject does not mean you become that profession after that degree, and that the world really needs more interdisciplinary professionals. So, parents have laid off a little bit and they actually allow students to choose more. And secondly, this current generation is also a lot more purpose driven.

Chan: Right.

Ma: They would actually say I want to do this. I've researched this, and I feel this is more aligned to my values, my purpose and my interests. So, with two kinds of, you know, trends, we have seen a much more diverse choice of subject selection amongst our students.

Chan: Jennifer, what you're saying is the common beliefs often sort of the new generation isn't as focus or sort of more laid back or "tong ping" as you say in Chinese, as you say, it's not true.

Ma: It really depends on what segments we're looking at. But we have always been helping students with top university applications, even that, in the past a lot of students were good students, and they were obedient children and they would listen to their parents, but in this generation, they really have their own purpose. If they are advocates of environmental sustainability, they would rather do urban studies, than economics, even though their grades qualify for going for these traditionally popular professional subjects.

Chan: It's interesting, isn't it? I think many years ago, when our parents sort of that generation when they go overseas, it's because Hong Kong has one or two universities that haven’t got the courses they want to do but now they stay and are given so many more different choices.

Ma: But even for medicine, for example, we see it is a very highly sought after subject. Even this year, most of the super scorers are going for medicine, but those who go abroad perhaps are going for biomedical science, biomedical engineering, applied medical science, so they're really looking at the whole healthcare system and how they can contribute as opposed to a single professional pursuit. So, I think this mindset is, it's very refreshing, actually for educators that we are seeing much more independent minds.

Chan: Right, Jennifer, let's take a short break now. But viewers, we will be right back.

Chan: Thank you for staying with us. Miss Jennifer Ma, the Chief Strategy Officer of CTF Education Group is with us this evening, to share with us her insights on why some Hong Kong students still choose to study abroad. So Jennifer, on the first part of the show, you have told the viewers sort of the latest development or trend in education globally, and even Hong Kong. And nearly a third of our students have left Hong Kong to overseas to study, maybe from the early years until sixth form. That is what you have said. In the last few episodes that we had, we had some great students, top scorers from Hong Kong. And all of them seem to be very purpose driven, as you said the younger people now are with a purpose in life. How do you think the pandemic or even the sort of geopolitical influence is affecting the choices whether to stay in Hong Kong or to go abroad?

Ma: Significant impact. Over the past few years, we have seen parents who have really looked into Hong Kong universities as options, simply because they feel that be it safety reasons, be it political alignment reasons, they would rather choose a local jurisdiction. And also cost is also a concern. A lot of the universities abroad have become expensive over the past few years, and it has really become a cost benefit analysis. And ultimately Hong Kong universities are very strong at providing career opportunities at the undergraduate level. So even at the time when I was in Oxford and Cambridge, career discussion was not at the foreground actually because they felt that if you have a good degree, you can go and find your own job. Whereas in Hong Kong, a lot of universities give them that exposure early on with a lot of corporate affiliations.

Chan: Since you mentioned about that, we often, many friends or even ourselves have our kids going abroad, even at earlier stage. I think before the interview, I said to you at our parents’ time, they only go overseas after they finish Form 7. At our times, when you go into Form 3 or Form 4, you are already one of the very few who go abroad. But you told me they even now go even earlier, is that right?

Ma: Yeah, it is all about competition. So, if we look at UK universities, for example, back in our days, one subject: economics, we are looking at maybe 12-15 percent success rate. Now the subject has split into 5 to 8 different sub-degrees, yet each degree, the competition is at 4 percent successful. So, low single digit, okay? So with that, if you backward review the competition for secondary schools, they are also hoping that the top students go into these top universities, right? So, they are recruiting students at an earlier age, who are of that talent, abilities. So, the examination requirements are much higher. For students in Hong Kong who are already doing quite a rigorous local curriculum, and having to prepare for the overseas examination at the same time, it’s very, very demanding. So, over the past few years, we have seen students leaving as early as 10 years old …

Chan: Really?

Ma: … to prep schools in the UK, and even us actually, so that they are actually immersed in that environment, and doing an aligned subject selection to prepare them easier and better for boarding school applications.

Chan: Did I hear you say 4 percent of applicants get in?

Ma: Yeah, admission rate for some of the top London colleges and the competitive subjects. We are looking at single digit, low single digit.

Chan: Right. And also earlier you mentioned that there are now a lot more choices for students, in terms of their career. But seems like all our Hong Kong super top scorers, many of them still choose medicine. I think out of 10 students this year, I think majority will still choose medicine, majority will choose to stay in Hong Kong, one may go overseas. Is that comparable to overseas sort of subject choices?

Ma: Yes. Actually we have seen a significant increase of interests going into healthcare related degrees in the UK and the US. I think it is a few reasons. One is COVID, so they really saw the impact of not just medical practitioners, but also researchers. So, all the bio-related subjects have become quite popular. And secondly, it is they are actually seeing this industry is gaining commercial interest. So, venture capitalists are putting resources, investing into these otherwise just research-based degrees. But now there is actually a commercialization potential of these graduates’ career development. I think it is quite interesting that the whole healthcare related subject series have become quite popular. And the other one is actually computer science, obviously, AI, computer science, all the quantitative-based subjects, have become quite popular too.

Chan: Right. And see, Jennifer, with your work, you look at different countries, so you sort of know kind of the application and success rate that you just mentioned. Which countries or regions are sort of most competitive in general to attracting international students? I know that the Hong Kong government, the chief executive had also said before that we’d like Hong Kong to be … because we have got such good universities here, we want to be like an education hub. Does Hong Kong have the quality to be there? Or we are too far off compared to other international cities?

Ma: I think I would say there isn't like a particular jurisdiction that is more competitive, so to speak. May be there are general admissions requirements, maybe more cumbersome like in the US, they look at your whole 4 years of profile, etc.; UK, academic requirements. But I would say the competition really is more concentrated on the top universities. So, a lot of students now are saying “if I don’t get into Ivy Leagues or the coastal universities, East Coast, West Coast universities, I'd rather stay put at a really good university in Hong Kong, rather than going to a second tier, third tier university. Same thing in the UK, actually. We are seeing the more, the Russell Group schools are becoming very popular. And there is a consolidation of the weaker universities, where students prefer to go into these top universities. So, in Hong Kong, I think we definitely are competitive. First of all, the society’s emphasis on academic excellence is high. So, students are well prepared at an earlier age. But I do think Hong Kong universities will need to stay competitive by being more innovative in collaborating with industries, to give more immersive hands-on experience to students because Hong Kong is a small city. And that is why we see a lot of Hong Kong universities venturing to the Chinese mainland because there is space, there is also closer proximity to corporates, so that we can do the bridging much better. So, I think Hong Kong universities are doing a lot to integrate with the Greater Bay Area area, to give students that kind of exposure.

Chan: Actually a lot of the Hong Kong universities are setting up sort of a branch within the mainland.

Ma: Yeah.

Chan: Even our City University, even our Chinese University, University of Hong Kong, etc.

Ma: And I think it is great for Hong Kong universities, increasingly they are giving undergraduate students a glimpse into research as well, with there's a lot more celebration of research projects that has been successful coming out from Hong Kong universities. And that is really why global rankings of universities is … a lot of people think it’s due to students’ success rate, student graduates’ career prospect. But actually a very big percentage that drives global university ranking is their research capability.

Chan: I see.

Ma: So, a lot of our students who opt to go abroad to study, it is not because they feel Hong Kong universities are not competitive, but because they actually want more exposure to research and at an earlier age.

Chan: Right. Jennifer, I am sure the viewers are going to start to think if I am going to send my kids overseas, say starting from secondary school, we have to look for the right boarding schools. I remember with my children, even to find a good and appropriate schools isn’t easy. So, how difficult now, even to go into, to be accepted into a good boarding school? Say the UK, how difficult is it?

Ma: The thing about boarding schools in general is that in the past, they always had intake from select few countries, right? So, Hong Kong was always a very big feeder region. But now they are much more globalized and schools are more cognizant of the diversity of international students cohort. So, they are looking at Southeast Asia, China, a lot more students applying abroad. So, hence the kind of competition landscape has increased. And therefore when it comes to application requirements and also admissions testing, it has also become more difficult. But mainly they are looking at English, Maths, and verbal, non-verbal reasoning abilities. So, it is pretty much transferable. And that is where sometimes it does challenge some of the Hong Kong students, who are very well versed from a content perspective, from a knowledge perspective, but when it comes to skill-based unseen text, they may need a little bit more enhancement.

Chan: Right. Jennifer, cost is definitely a big consideration for many families, especially with the downturn in the actual economy. Can you give a ballpark figure, say how much money shall one family be preparing for going to university abroad or even high school? And overall, is it worth it?

Ma: I mean it could be quite diverse, even with boarding schools. You could go to a grammar school that offers boarding facilities and taking international students, and that is like a third of a UK boarding school price. But if I were to say a ballpark figure, you would at least need HK$300,000 to as high as HK$800,000.

Chan: Per year?

Ma: Per year. Depending on what universities or schools you're going for.

Chan: Is it worth it though, at the end of the day, do you think? It is a lot of money.

Ma: So, it’s really… the value proposition really depends on the family. Some family members feel that just being abroad and being immersed in that culture, and learning things that you may not even have the exposure to in this part of the world, is already worth it. And some parents feel that simply going abroad and be able to find your passion is worth it. And so I think it really depends on families.

Chan: Right. The last question I am going to ask you is: I know that you've been doing sort of a … building an education hub and boarding school in Guangzhou, I think you are trying to link up the actual commercial element and the actual study elements of the system. Will this be a new trend? Be short.

Ma: We really hope we are establishing a new concept and running K-12 education, because ultimately getting into universities, you really need to prepare students at an early age. So, we advocate for the “kindervarsity” model, which is “kinder” means children, kindergarten; “varsity” is like university. So we are hoping to bring together the community of industry practitioners, industry corporates, as well as tertiary education researchers and scholars, faculty and teachers, and also learners, which include the students and parents, and jointly come up with really innovative pedagogies and learning experiences, for students to not just learn knowledge, but also skills and transferable competencies, relevant for the current real world.

Chan: I am afraid that is all the time we have with Jennifer. Thank you, Jennifer, for sharing her insights and expertise with us. The trends and developments she has highlighted have given us much food for thought, as we consider the future of education for Hong Kong students.

As Nelson Mandela said, “Education is the most powerful weapon, which you can use to change the world”. Thank you for joining us and have a good evening!